Is a poem written by Sharon Olds. While many of her poems are far more elegant than this one, for me it has always been one of her most memorable.
Death of Marilyn Monroe
The ambulance men touched her cold
body, lifted it, heavy as iron,
onto the stretcher, tried to close
the mouth, closed the eyes, tied the
arms to the side, moved a caught
strand of hair, as if it mattered,
saw the shape of her breasts, flattened by
gravity, under the sheet,
carried her, as if it were she,
down the steps.
These men were never the same. They went out
afterwards, as they always did,
for a drink or two, but they could not meet
each other's eyes.
Their lives took
a turn—one had nightmares, strange
pains, impotence, depression. One did not
like his work, his wife looked
different, his kids. Even death
seemed different to him—a place where she
would be waiting,
and one found himself standing at night
in the doorway to a room of sleep, listening to a
woman breathing, just an ordinary
woman
breathing.
Do you enjoy the poem? Does it mean anything to you? I'd love to hear any impressions you might have. Incidentally I'm not really interested in scholarly interpretations, I'd like to know what it means to you, presuming that it strikes any sort of chord at all. This is the way poems are meant to be read, in my opinion, though thousands of stuffier individuals would love to disagree 🙂
More of her work HERE in the right hand sidebar. Look out for "True Love", it's a WONDERFUL poem.
hugs and love
capegirl
I agree with u Michelle, but how do u make someone change their opinion when they think they’re right. Asha’s told him how I feel too and just says I’ll think about it, and then keeps letting him while he ‘thinks’ about it.That was weeks ago :rolleyes:
Adult games are for adults…i’m an ardent gamer myself…so i know what the consequences can be for a small kid…….i grew too violent when i plyed this game…DOOM3…eventually all my friends started complaining about the change in my behaviour…so i decided to quit playing gory games…instead now i just play sports games like football
in my (admittedly considerable) experience :rolleyes: you can’t *make somebody* change their minds. people change on their own or they don’t. or they do it on their own time. sure we might have some influence and we may even be able to persuade…and we certainly shouldn’t keep quiet if we think or believe something strongly.i’m sure he thinks he’s right..we all think we’re “right” for better or worse..but it’s your child too so you have a lot to say about it…in this case i’d be firm and decide to not allow it in your home, firstly-probably you already have 😀 and i’d definitely try to reach a compromise on the number of hours spent playing them. if you can’t get a total ban. that is. he should also be respecting your concerns not just stalling fobbing you off is not very respectful-especially if it’s about your child…that doesn’t mean he must “give in”..just work it out so everybody is getting some of their needs met…right now it sounds only he is..*i’m just saying* i know i can be a bit “blunt”i think the time spent does make a difference and if it’s balanced out with other activities then ok-ish. personally i think this sort of exposure to violence (i mean the harsh, adult ones) is tantamount to taking my kid out to a strip club or murder scene at the age of 5 (but again that is just how i see it) heads being cut off, swearing vengeance, kill kill!,win win!)and all made to seem “normal” do i want my child to have that message. no.the last thing i’d do is create other activities. real world based ones. to fill up his time with healthy, positive things..my guess is eventually he won’t even want to play those games, they’ll seem boring…..let there be *no time* for it!some parents use games and TV to give themselves space too (which i can understand-kids can be exhausting at times) Sonam: yay for you bro’! i think you handled that in a healthy way!
yeah…playing gory games really changes a person…you maybe railing all those zombies and swearing in such a language that’ll make your mother get a heart-attack:lol:
Sonam 😆 we’re a bit like dogs you know. Pavlov’s dogs..but still dogs…a bit like mirrors, just pick up a habit and repeat it over and over. not that dogs are stupid. but we might be.. :DRhona does Asha even like playing it? if not..then total ban! surely there should be laws to handle this. if he was taking him to some damgerous or destructive place or making him watch x-rated films then, yes. but an adult computer game, no? i don’t know actually..but there should be…once they might have been just games (pac-man!) lol and apart from the time spent maybe they were ok…these days they’re not “just games”
Sigh, I know and they’re so realistic. Yes, Asha loves it, of course. He gets a super dose of adrenalin everytime he plays.James, the dad, says about other games ‘yeah but I think he’s interested in it because of the guns and war’!! *Duh*He doesn’t have anything like that here. Words, numbers and picture games only. U see, James just got the machine for Xmas, his special gift :right: U can just imagine how mature he is, right? A small word of advice: Choose ur partners very carefully, cause it takes just once to be forever linked with someone through a child. Forever is a very, very long time!! *sigh*
:yes:
i know it may not seem like it, now, but possibly one day you’ll look back and thank that man for what he did. it’ll have made you more of who you are. i believe that…..that the pain we endure or experience is there because of “gaps” deficits, weaknesses in personality…character….and it comes along to heal them…keep being who YOU want to be and you’ll find a man who likes that and respects it, love. he may even be looking for “just that” 😀 PUMA!!!! :heart:
p.s. i’m like you Rhona, I want a man to “MAN UP” about important things..:rolleyes:if you ever meet one, i’d suggest you hold on, but you will, now that you’ve seen the other side. *oh and ask him if he has a brother” 😀
Yeah, u never know. *sigh* Thanks Michelle, I went around my head with all those things and ended up here too. *shrug* I have to trust in God with those things, all things for a reason and a season.I just don’t like the weather sometimes :worried:
i understand. you can distance yourself only so far from somebody if you share a child. :frown:well you know in this case we’ve gone past the point of opinion. to me an opinion is a belief about something, sometimes converted into actions and lifestyles, that is our choice. kids like coffee and sugar too, but they can’t have that all the time either or their health will suffer…here actions are taking place, so it’s not just about opinion.freedom of choice in all things (legal) is for adults. Asha won’t have the filters, so you’ll both have to protect him. he might also like the “alone time” with Dad, huh. The “them” things they do…it’s not easy when attitudes are so different and one or both people are inflexible. i know this. 🙂 i really do.quite possibly they’ll both get bored with it once it’s out of their system. that often happens too. let’s hope, it does if you can’t come to some other agreement.
Thanks Michelle :heart: That’s my belief, my philosophy and my practice :DLovin the PUMA!!! 😀
((((hugs))), Rhona rockin’ like a PUMA!! 😀
Sonam, you make some excellent points. Bravo! I’d like to chime in on this as a thirty-something man.I learned to handle and fire guns starting at age seven. I’ve used shotguns, muzzle loaders, .22 caliber rifles, high-powered rifles, a 9mm pistol, and a .38 caliber revolver. I was a good shot, too, but it never crossed my mind to use a gun against somebody because of my upbringing.With my experience, I would NOT let a five year old child play violent games or do much of anything that glazes their eyes over. Kids have enough trouble with distinguishing reality. Most kids that age fervently believe in things like Santa Claus.Kids can gain plenty of hand-eye coordination from sports-related games or even (gasp!) playing sports or music. My best memories of my father are spending time building or fixing things. It’s not a myth that real men CAN and DO use tools. Plus, working together teaches you to relate to other people.Rhona, you might want to point out that you’ve shown James plenty of respect on this point, and it’s time he showed you some.
i am also able to handle most of the above weapons and for me it was a positive learning experience, too. being able to use them does not a violent person make, of course. your last paragraph makes a lot of sense if you’re dealing with a reasonable man.
i was also just remembering as a young girl..if something went wrong in the house my dad calling me over: “come here Michelle, one day you’ll be on your own and you need to know how to do this”*for example fix a plug, change fuses (back in the day) paint a wall, use a drill..* so he was quite good, but i was also interested. later i learned about cars and other sundry emergency issues in my courses…my point is..i have learned some life-affirming things via computer but i don’t think i’ll ever feel like: “everything I ever learned to do, i learned playing DOOM3”. so i can’t accept that argument, but it’s up to Rhona of course…
Exactly *sigh*
James dosn’t really have any skills. He has a black belt from like 15 years ago and that’s about it. He’s a security officer, he stands around all day.He actually gets very defensive when u talk to him about change. U can see the hairs on his neck stand up.I don’t mind him on the computer, he uses mine. I just would like him to use age appropriate ones. James doesn’t have a computer, he has Nintendo :rolleyes:
That speaks volumes :rolleyes:.
K, here’s a James update. He says to me “It’s only a game Rhona, get off ur high horse” :left: :worried: :sigh:I wanna *&#^%@ him, then @^%$#^!@ and if I can I’d like to #@&*%^^$@# at him!!!!! 😡
LOL @ *&#^%@!but i’m glad to hear you tackled him again (PUMA!)i don’t know where they’re located but i believe there are some legitimate studies that have been done on these games. decent studies.the results seemed to indicate that they are out-and-out damaging for a variety of reasons. google for more and show him. *though i’m getting the idea about what he is all about and have intimate experience with how he probably won’t care* *sorry girl* but i’ve been there…i’ll be honest here: if it were me, i’d deny him access to my child. i really would. unless and until he no longer does this…esp. if they are ADULT games..you have recourse and are not “being unfair” “playing games” “using Asha against him” and all the rest he is likely to use as ammunition…..but i am a fighting tiger like that (TIGER!)
comnbined with a lack of emotional RE-ACTION. he’ll be enjoying the fact that you’re getting your knickers in a twist over this by now and the power that this gives him over you.ACTIONNO RE-ACTIONi’m just saying.
the “something else” needs to be a concrete action.
my point being that he is not respecting your concerns about your son, because he’s pretty sure you’re going to allow him not to. he learned this somehow. he needs to learn something else. :heart:
A few questions.Do you know if any of the games have an official age restriction.Do you know, and can you tell us, the titles of these games..My :wizard: brain has just kicked in and I know how to fix you problem but I need this info for best results. :devil:
Michelle, ur not allowed to do that here, u go to jail. I’d love to do exactly that.The info is a good idea, just to shove the high horse up his ass :Dqlue, I don’t know right now but I’m off to find out!! *determined*
legally I meant. with a lawyers help. you can’t do that there, if you feel he is being a negative influence? If that game had sexual or other damaging content?
ok. keep us posted!
No thanks, been there done that. Besides which, unless he’s taking drugs or violent it won’t get to court. They don’t judge on choice of upbringing. I don’t think it’s sexual :right:I can’t even find it. I know he has an xbox, it’s an army game.I’m gonna have to ask him :rolleyes:
:up:
…… update…….The game is called ‘Ghost Recon’ on xbox. I can’t find anything about age restrictions.What do u think qlue? Michelle?
Ya know what, Rhona? If it’s just a game, HE can get over it just as soon as you can. In fact, he can play something that both of you can agree on. There’s nothing wrong with action-packed games, but c’mon for f#@ we’re proud of you. Whenever it gets especially difficult, just think of what you can look forward to.
the game seems like a war/tactical game. from what i just read, there is bad language and bad behavior. why not play it yourself and see if you think it’s something you want Asha to be exposed to. I can’t know since i don’t have the game in front of me and am not trying to protect my child from it.i think:you’re either going to take a stand on this or not. you can decide either way. if you’re going to challenge James then do it in a way he understands. (of course you can’t tie him to a chair and forbid him, and you don’t want/or can’t take the legal route) I don’t know what that leaves? arguing with him? i don’t know….because it doesn’t sound like he’s too concerned with your feelings. or willing to compromise.if you choose not to take a stand then you’ll really just have to let the whole thing go.but we are here for you nonetheless :heart:
i’ll just add that for me it wouldn’t be about whether the game is violent enough to affect his behavior, moderately violent, not violent at all..although the studies seem to suggest that anything that over-adrenlizes a child can be bad while their brains are still developing..it’s also about the choices you make for your child, and you do get to choose that :heart: so we shouldn’t focus too much on the game. the comments i read were from a site that supports gaming with kids, but most of these comments were about teenagers. the game is rated: MATURE from what I can gather and you have to be 18 to download or buy it, I think. the comment i read was: “it’s generally ok for teens, but the language and behavior is all over the place.”possibly if a child is 15/16 he/she has more separation, but as Sonam told us….i’d go to the gaming forums (for and against)and read some more..then decide based on your own ethics for Asha whether that fits in or not…then if you still feel strongly you’ll have to tackle James..((HUGS)))
Ban games………….:lol:
but not football! or cricket! 😀
No…i love them…no racial comments allowed though:lol:
i heard something about that..what happened? oh it’s becoming so common these days, huh? india are an “ok” team, not that great….. :p
Have you ever heard of a lawyers quagmire? It’s a trick that lawyers use when another lawyer subpoena’s records.They deliver the requested documents mixed in with a million unrelated documents so that you could never find what you’re looking for.Using a variation of this technique, you can present your son’s father with a folder full of ‘lawyer’s letters’ and other ‘legal’ documents.Then you tell him that you’ve spoken to a lawyer and he advised you to get an order against him as it is illegal to expose young children to age restricted material.Tell him that you don’t really want to do this but you will if he forces you to.Then you leave the documents with him and leave. :devil:Give of a few day’s and I’ll find the documents and websites for you to download and print. Manilla envelopes and folders can be bought at the same places that sell printer paper. Most stationary shops sell rubber stamps as well.:angel:
in a totally unrelated to Rhona’s situation vein, i’m wondering how this might have worked on a certain person i once knew. he’d have stood his coffee on it, or used it for shopping lists :rolleyes: of course if she does all this then he’d have recourse to sue her for falsifying documents. or could use it against her at some time in the future if there was ever a more serious disagreement over another issue.
articles sure, but i just don’t think pretending they’re legitimate lawyers letters is going to work. anybody could easily verify those, which is the first thing i’d do. sure as a scare tactic, maybe, but i’d not commit a crime myself in the process, is what i mean.
It is possible although it all depends on what documents you use. If you do it right, and you play the poker face correctly, He’ll back down out of sheer ignorance. Since women have a built in manipulator gene and most guys are thicker than (ripp’s favourite animall+word)I believe she can pull this of. Nothing says serious like pile of paper does. :devil:I’ve seen guys turn white just seeing a pile of documents.The trick here is to choose documents that are relevant in that they detail legal aspects that are related but not too specific. In South Africa we’d include a healthy dose of Government Gazette.Only a lawyer can tell what is relevant but even then, there is no law against giving someone a pile of useless legal articles. :devil:
Also, that won’t work in the long run cause he banded with my Mum to take me to court before and it completely ruined any relations between us all.I sent him a discussion on the effects of media on kids so, maybe it’ll start the pennies to drop. *shrug*I actually think it’s more about not doing what I ask or suggest. He’s just saying yes cause I said no.What can I say, he’s an idiot!! :DI intend to hold my stand on this Michelle! (PUMA) 😀
I’ll try that label angle, it might work. I hear u about the respect!He did that cause he’s an idiot Michelle. There’s alot of shit between us, we don’t really agree on anything. We don’t share the same values.Thank you all for ur support and kind words, it means alot to me. Ur all helping me be stronger!! 🙂 :heart:
why did he do that!?i definitely think that keeping things amicable is the best way to go and the best way of ensuring Asha has a happy family unit. I mentioned the legal route because that is what i’d do if i really felt my child was in any way abused or neglected by anybody who cared for him. a computer game may not be worth a legal battle, but where they contained sexual or innapropriate content being shown to a very young child, i’d definitely stop that, by whatever means necessary. it’s the law anyway, that kids are not allowed to have access to adult material. “no under 18’s” “mature” labels are there for a reason. this was decided a very long time ago. i would be nice if James was aware enough to respect that :((((“yes” because you said “no’ is very immature. i agree.
sharing the same values matters a great deal. i didn’t fully understand that when I was younger. if i had, i’d have given the men i met an interview and asked them to do the same ;)it’s a pleasure for the support. or as we say in SA” “plesh” ….i do anyway :lol:keep us posted when you hear back from James.
Yep yep yep @ values! and that interview advice I’ll pass around, I wish I’d known that when I was younger too.It’s a plesh to have the support 😀 :heart:I don’t see James until Saturday and he will undoubtedly wanna speak to Asha first so, I don’t really expect to hear till maybe Monday :rolleyes: If i’m lucky.I’m off off Michelle, have a good day/night/avo 😀
Ok, he sent me an email saying he’s too busy at work to look right now but he then said he was grateful for my aproach, it’s leaving his mind open! :up: Maybe there is a keyI told him about the law thing and asked him why he doesn’t take him to the pub and give him a beer, it’s just a drink.We’ll see……………..
qlue’s got a real solution:lol:
Uh… What is PUMA?:worried: I forgot what I was going to say… maybe later.:coffee: If the coffee kicks in…